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Kalopin
By Kalopin
December 16, 2015 in Speculations
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Posted December 16, 2015
I am requesting your vote to make December 16, 1811 to be the starting point for the Anthropocene era [the new age of man] the proposed term for the current geological epoch, from the time of the industrilal revolution onward...
The reasons being that a sungrazer comet, C/1811 F1, made a close pass in front of our planet in late November/early December causing extreme climate change, the mini ice age from 1811-1817, many earthquakes, eruptions, weather events, eventually causing the eruption of Mount Tambora in 1815 and "1816- the year without a summer". Temperatures have risen ever since this date...
I invite you to go through all the details and to see the amount of evidence pointing to these scenarios. begin at-
www.linkedin.com/pulse/science-history-impact-physics-climate-change-tony-hood?trk=pulse_spock-articleswww.linkedin.com/pulse/moment-space-anthropocene-rock-tony-hood?trk=prof-post Please place your vote, start here-
www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/08/16/the-anthropocene-part-1-tracking-human-induced-catastrophe-on-a-planetary-scale/ Tthere is a lot of information to go through. Hope this finds your interest...
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Posted December 17, 2015
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After staff review, we've reinstated this thread and moved it to Speculations. Climate Science is a mainstream section where people go for information, so we need to discuss whether comets cause earthquakes elsewhere.
I will also ask the OP to give us a brief synopsis of "a lot of information to go through". This will surely create the interest you desire.
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Posted December 17, 2015
On 12/16/2015 at 4:10 PM, Kalopin said:
I am requesting your vote to make December 16, 1811 to be the starting point for the Anthropocene era [the new age of man] the proposed term for the current geological epoch, from the time of the industrilal revolution onward...
The reasons being that a sungrazer comet, C/1811 F1, made a close pass in front of our planet in late November/early December causing extreme climate change, the mini ice age from 1811-1817, many earthquakes, eruptions, weather events, eventually causing the eruption of Mount Tambora in 1815 and "1816- the year without a summer". Temperatures have risen ever since this date...
I'm going to need much more than a blog post as evidence that a comet or small meteor caused all of this.
Also, since the rationale behind the beginning of this era is (as per your Forbes link) "what should we call this period of time when we started trashing the planet? And when did it begin?" why would you use a non-human influenced event as a marker?
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Posted December 19, 2015
On 12/17/2015 at 12:12 PM, swansont said:
I'm going to need much more than a blog post as evidence that a comet or small meteor caused all of this.
Also, since the rationale behind the beginning of this era is (as per your Forbes link) "what should we call this period of time when we started trashing the planet? And when did it begin?" why would you use a non-human influenced event as a marker?
Thanks,
koolkreations.wix.com/kalopins-legacyon the cover the document "An extraterrestrial origin for the Mississippi embayment" has some details and the crater's coordinates.
Please go through all the evidence- the satellite views, stratigraphy of the valley, go through the historical accounts, look closely at the impactites [rocks] and once you see the scientific and observational data, I believe you will come to this same conclusion- that this was much more than just a seismic event in the central United States, but was a global catastrophe from the close passing of a comet-
ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/humboldt/alexander/travels/chapter14.html-has excellent accounts of the many disasters which occurred at this same moment and in this same area. Caracas, Venezuela was also destroyed killing many thousands at the same time...
I feel it an important moment in time, to change much of the direction in human history. Once this finds further study, I believe many events will find explanation. That this was a sungrazer comet and made a close pass in front of Earth in late November/early December producing a serial impact.
This will be found to have caused the mini-ice age from 1811-1817, many earthquakes, eruptions and strange weather patterns, produced the Carolina bays, caused the eruption of Mount Tambora in 1815 and "1816-the year without a summer", was the reason for such a drop in temperatures to wipe out much of Napolean's army, caused the hurricane that sent off the tornado to kill many of the British, forcing their retreat, as they were trying to destroy the U.S. capital. This comet affected human history and changed so much that a new era had begun. The recovery from all these disasters, the deaths, famine and struggles, forced the start of an industrial revolution. It is a fact that temperatures have been on the rise ever since these events and the passing of this comet, Comet C/.1811 f1...
The close passing of this comet resulted in major climate change...
I hope you find the time to go over every detail and let me know what you think.
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Posted December 19, 2015 (edited)
brief synopsis:
This is some very important information concerning our science and history and what was a meteor impact to northern Mississippi to cause the New Madrid earthquakes of 1811-1812.
Just to the top of northeastern Marshall county, Mississippi there is a circular structure extending partly into Tennessee, which every hill in the valley and every line in the topography emanates out from, in a shock-wave pattern, to the Tennessee river on the east,to out passed the St.Francis river on the west. Panning out from here, draw a line down the middle of the New Madrid bend [in the upper northwest corner of Tennessee] straight to north Slayden, Mississippi to view the lines showing angle, direction and force of the impact written in the topography. Follow each river to the north, [Wolf river, Hatchie river, Loosahatche river..]., from the Mississippi river down through their valleys, through the state of Mississippi to see the larger waves from the shock.
I believe it to be not quite a three mile in diameter crater, with a central rebound peak, with many canyons and deep creeks running out from. In these creeks there are several spherule beds,where many unusual rocks have been found,with every aspect of impactites, meteorites and melt rock of all sorts, what appears to be nanodiamonds and shocked quartz, [though not confirmed, yet].
Following out to each line in topography, there are a couple roads, Mill Pond road and Early Grove road. Where they meet they follow the circular pattern of the inner basin. Just to the east of where these roads meet is a white sand creek, Early Grove creek. Follow this creek up passed the Tennessee state line, passed the Wolf river bottoms, to the west through a tree line and back down through Mount Pleasant to back down passed the impression. This is the first in a series of shock waves that reverberates out many times to the edge of the embayment and is almost the exact same design as the outer edge of the Mississippi embayment. All the semi-circular fractures throughout eastern Arkansas, the sand blows and every line surrounds this central location like a bulls-eye.
The land to the south of impact all runs from east to west and left large chasms, some of which were dammed up and made in to lakes, such as Sardis, Enid and Arkabutla. The valley was pushed upward to the north to a great degree, [known as the "upper mid-land drift", "new Madrid lines", "upland complex","upland formation"] changing its entire geography. It was believed an ice sheet had somehow pulled this land upward, until an Illinois geologist determined the moraines never made it down this far. Then it was thought that inland seas had somehow formed these lines over millions of years, though the lines are more or less evenly spaced and are not beach fronts, that and the fact that there are several descriptions of the shock wave as it occurred within the historical accounts...
Currently the several spherule beds in the northern part of the embayment are considered to be from the Chesapeake bay impact event and the spherule beds in the lower embayment are thought to be from the Chicxulub impact event. This evidence will tie everything together, to an impact on December 16, 1811 from the close passing of a sungrazer comet...
The entire Mississippi embayment is the design left from a large bolide impact, an astrobleme...
Going through the historical accounts, there are many reports of meteoric lights across the skies prior to the first shock, some as far away as Savannah, Georgia, way too far to be any kind of naturally occurring earthquake lights. Church-bells ringing throughout the northeast U.S., many to state they thought the comet had went down in the Ohio river or had "touched the mountain of California". Lights so bright at two-thirty in the morning, one man in Louisville, Kentucky said he could see a needle on the floor. reports of bright lights, loud explosions, clouds of black smoke, smells of sulfur,... in fact there are many descriptions to indicate a meteor impact...
Everyone was scared of the Chickasaw,for what they had done to deSoto. In 1809 they had threatened open war.In 1810 and 1811 they had forced the U.S. Calvary to remove more than five thousand squatters from their land, so there were only natives near this area and the ones that did see the impact and probably up to twenty to thirty miles away from impact were instantly vaporized anyway. As the impact was directed toward New Madrid and happened at two-thirty in the morning, it was misunderstood as an earthquake, the French being a very convincing people, the natives not so much and mainly only the smoke clouds were seen and the shaking was felt near the town of New Madrid, Mo.
There is quite a bit left to study. This involves much of the geography, geology, topography, archaeology,...of the three states of Mississippi, Tennessee and Arkansas.
There is a lot of lost history and misunderstood science, mostly from the misconceptions and superstitions of a more primitive era in time. It will, more than likely take quite a while before this is finally deciphered, added into curriculum and becomes common knowledge. As I have been studying this now for more than fifteen years and trying hard to put this out for the last five years, it will also, more than likely, take a lot more than just my efforts to correct this much of our science and history. That is why I now ask for your help. Anything you can do to get this to the public and to make this known. Students pay a lot for their education. What has been and is being taught is mostly just conjecture with no substance. The research being put forth here is all based on tangible fact... Can you help?
[An individual is entitled to a belief, a scientist is obligated to determine the percentage of possibility]
Edited December 19, 2015 by Kalopin
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Posted December 19, 2015
On 12/19/2015 at 3:44 PM, Kalopin said:
Thanks,
koolkreations.wix.com/kalopins-legacyon the cover the document "An extraterrestrial origin for the Mississippi embayment" has some details and the crater's coordinates.
Please go through all the evidence- the satellite views, stratigraphy of the valley, go through the historical accounts, look closely at the impactites [rocks] and once you see the scientific and observational data, I believe you will come to this same conclusion- that this was much more than just a seismic event in the central United States, but was a global catastrophe from the close passing of a comet-
ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/humboldt/alexander/travels/chapter14.html-has excellent accounts of the many disasters which occurred at this same moment and in this same area. Caracas, Venezuela was also destroyed killing many thousands at the same time...
I feel it an important moment in time, to change much of the direction in human history. Once this finds further study, I believe many events will find explanation. That this was a sungrazer comet and made a close pass in front of Earth in late November/early December producing a serial impact.
This will be found to have caused the mini-ice age from 1811-1817, many earthquakes, eruptions and strange weather patterns, produced the Carolina bays, caused the eruption of Mount Tambora in 1815 and "1816-the year without a summer", was the reason for such a drop in temperatures to wipe out much of Napolean's army, caused the hurricane that sent off the tornado to kill many of the British, forcing their retreat, as they were trying to destroy the U.S. capital. This comet affected human history and changed so much that a new era had begun. The recovery from all these disasters, the deaths, famine and struggles, forced the start of an industrial revolution. It is a fact that temperatures have been on the rise ever since these events and the passing of this comet, Comet C/.1811 f1...
The close passing of this comet resulted in major climate change...
I hope you find the time to go over every detail and let me know what you think.
The first two I encountered were:
30th of January, 1811, a submarine volcano broke out near the island of St. Michael, one of the Azores.
the earthquake of the 26th of March, 1812. By that catastrophe the town of Caracas was destroyed
The list at the end spans 16 years. Do you have any idea how many earthquakes happen every year? The Caracas quake was a 7.7. On average, since 1900 there are 15 of these per year
earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqarchives/year/eqstats.php This is nothing but correlation, which is not causation. It's not evidence.
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Posted December 19, 2015
On 12/19/2015 at 7:38 PM, swansont said:
The first two I encountered were:
30th of January, 1811, a submarine volcano broke out near the island of St. Michael, one of the Azores.
the earthquake of the 26th of March, 1812. By that catastrophe the town of Caracas was destroyed
The list at the end spans 16 years. Do you have any idea how many earthquakes happen every year? The Caracas quake was a 7.7. On average, since 1900 there are 15 of these per year
earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqarchives/year/eqstats.php This is nothing but correlation, which is not causation. It's not evidence.
Yes, earthquakes happen all the time. i am discussing a concentration of earthquakes and eruptions along a period of two to three years and at the same time as a large comet was seen in October 1811, as fifty percent larger than the Sun. Herschel saw the comet's tail becoming much shorter in early November 1811, indicating it was coming toward him...
Quote from "Travels to the equinoctial regions of America" chapter 14, about one-quarter down- "...Precisely at this period when this long series of earthquakes commenced in the Transalleghanian States [in the month of December 1811] , the town of Caracas felt the first shock, in calm and serene weather..."
There was no Richter scale 'til 1935, so the magnitudes are later estimates.
The other years are not in question, just the many quakes and eruptions from 1811 to 1813. This is the only evidence available and happens to agree with the timing of the passing of this comet and the many other events that are associated.
I believe even the most skeptical cannot deny that all these events did occur and there must be an explanation. This many quakes, eruptions, severe weather, what the historical accounts state, the designs in the geography seen on satellite. the observations,... are all in alignment. They all agree that this comet, C/1811 f1 was the cause of much destruction...
I did say that there is a lot to go through.
The satellite view is the "smoking gun", the "dead give-away" as all this is written in the geography of this planet...
There happens to be no other mechanism available to be able to form this topography but a meteor impact...
...and so, now impact physics must be revised... :-]
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Posted December 20, 2015 (edited)
On 12/16/2015 at 4:10 PM, Kalopin said:
The reasons being that a sungrazer comet, C/1811 F1, made a close pass in front of our planet in late November/early December causing extreme climate change, the mini ice age from 1811-1817, many earthquakes, eruptions, weather events, eventually causing the eruption of Mount Tambora in 1815 and "1816- the year without a summer". Temperatures have risen ever since this date...
For what reason you are connecting appearance of comet with earthquakes, eruptions of volcanoes, and decrease of temperature.. ?
Earthquakes, eruptions of volcanoes, and decrease of temperature, can be connected to each other.
Volcanoes are releasing gases and ashes to atmosphere that can indeed decrease temperature on entire Earth. As well as gases that can increase it (CO2, CH4).
But these 3 things are not directly connected to comet.
The closest distance between this comet and Earth could be 5.3 mln km (search its perihelion, without taking into account inclination).
We have much closer (thus causing higher influence) much more massive object, our Moon.
Comet's perihelion ~5.3 mln km / Moon's orbit radius ~400k km = ~13.275 times more distance. Inverse-square 1/r^2 gives ~0.00567 = ~0.567% influence if mass of both objects would be the same (but it's not).
Edited December 20, 2015 by Sensei
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/19/2015 at 8:36 PM, Kalopin said:
Yes, earthquakes happen all the time. i am discussing a concentration of earthquakes and eruptions along a period of two to three years
Can you show us the statistical analysis that indicates there was a concentration of erathquakes at this time.
Quote
and at the same time as a large comet was seen in October 1811, as fifty percent larger than the Sun.
Can you show us the calculations, based on the mass of the Earth and the distance to ithat it could have had significant tidal effects on the Earth; i.e. greater than the Moon, for example.
Quote
Herschel saw the comet's tail becoming much shorter in early November 1811, indicating it was coming toward him...
There are other possible explanations. Can you tell us where in its orbit the comet was at this time?
Quote
I believe even the most skeptical cannot deny that all these events did occur and there must be an explanation. This many quakes, eruptions, severe weather, what the historical accounts state, the designs in the geography seen on satellite. the observations,... are all in alignment.
One possible explanation is coincidence and cherry picking. As you provide no hard data, it is impossible to say.
Quote
They all agree that this comet, C/1811 f1 was the cause of much destruction...
But based on what we know about comets, that one can be almost certainly ruled out (without any data to support it).
Quote
...and so, now impact physics must be revised...
Not without some data.
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/19/2015 at 8:36 PM, Kalopin said:
Yes, earthquakes happen all the time. i am discussing a concentration of earthquakes and eruptions along a period of two to three years and at the same time as a large comet was seen in October 1811, as fifty percent larger than the Sun.
The coma was 50% larger than the sun. The nucleus was a few tens of km. If that cause earthquakes, then the moon should be devastating our planet with them.
The timing of the quakes and eruptions with the comet were coincidences. You have presented nothing that suggests otherwise.
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 1:43 AM, Sensei said:
For what reason you are connecting appearance of comet with earthquakes, eruptions of volcanoes, and decrease of temperature.. ?
Earthquakes, eruptions of volcanoes, and decrease of temperature, can be connected to each other.
Volcanoes are releasing gases and ashes to atmosphere that can indeed decrease temperature on entire Earth. As well as gases that can increase it (CO2, CH4).
But these 3 things are not directly connected to comet.
The closest distance between this comet and Earth could be 5.3 mln km (search its perihelion, without taking into account inclination).
We have much closer (thus causing higher influence) much more massive object, our Moon.
Comet's perihelion ~5.3 mln km / Moon's orbit radius ~400k km = ~13.275 times more distance. Inverse-square 1/r^2 gives ~0.00567 = ~0.567% influence if mass of both objects would be the same (but it's not).
The Moon is not disruptive to Earth's orbit, they are in sync, [after several collisions, terraforming and finding a better harmonic balance...]
...There was an extremely large comet in the sky, in October 1811. There was an extreme amount of meteoric activity at this same time in late November/early December. Several earthquakes, eruptions, strange weather and many disasters occurred at this same moment in time. The geography agrees. The science agrees. The historical accounts agree. There are many accounts describing this...
The orbital elements of Comet C/1811 f1 are rough estimates assigned at a later time, assumptions from bad interpretations and are inaccurate.
How could a comet be seen as fifty percent larger than the Sun and be at a distance of over 1.22 AU [October 16]? If it were that big at that distance, it would have disrupted the entire solar system.
see-
www.cometography.com/lcomets/1811f1.html Study the accounts and see what is being described. Why would people believe the entire comet had went down in the Ohio river at the same moment of the quakes? ...and what of all the accounts of meteor impacts?
pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/office/hough/mitchill.htmlgo about three quarters down to Captain Robert Alexander's account- "...three large extraordinary fires, in the air..." and there are many to this affect...
www.showme.net/~fkeller/quake/savannah.htm "...preceeded by a meteoric flash of light..."
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 2:47 PM, Kalopin said:
.There was an extremely large comet in the sky, in October 1811. There was an extreme amount of meteoric activity at this same time in late November/early December. Several earthquakes, eruptions, strange weather and many disasters occurred at this same moment in time. The geography agrees. The science agrees. The historical accounts agree. There are many accounts describing this...
Then you should be able to provide the analysis requested. Where is it?
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 3:10 AM, Strange said:
Can you show us the statistical analysis that indicates there was a concentration of erathquakes at this time.
Can you show us the calculations, based on the mass of the Earth and the distance to ithat it could have had significant tidal effects on the Earth; i.e. greater than the Moon, for example.
There are other possible explanations. Can you tell us where in its orbit the comet was at this time?
One possible explanation is coincidence and cherry picking. As you provide no hard data, it is impossible to say.
But based on what we know about comets, that one can be almost certainly ruled out (without any data to support it).
Not without some data.
What do "we" know about comets?
"statistical analysis"? it was 1811.There are only eye-witness descriptions and Alexander Von Humboldt is but one but, I would think, a very reliable source.
Presently I am not aware of any theoretical physics with calculations considering a comet with enough mass, velocity and on a trajectory taking it to a close enough pass as is being suggested with the effects from C/1811 F1. Can you find something?
The historical accounts all give descriptions that the comet was very close. It was last seen in the southern hemisphere, then the weather [mostly from the comet] disrupted the view-
www.hsv.com/genlintr/newmadrd/newspapers/The_Messenger-Feb_28_1811.jpg[fourth column near the top] "...and the comet appeared hazy and dim. The weather was incessantly varying, from oppressive heat to severe cold and during many of the shocks some rain fell..." ] mmm, what could cause such heat during an "earthquake" in one of the coldest winters on record?]
There is plenty of data- in the satellite views,scientific and observational data, impactites [rocks], historical accounts,... and once the shocked quartz has been confirmed, there will be no doubt that this was an impact from the close passing of a comet...
[miss me Strange? ;-]
On 12/20/2015 at 9:38 AM, swansont said:
The coma was 50% larger than the sun. The nucleus was a few tens of km. If that cause earthquakes, then the moon should be devastating our planet with them.
The timing of the quakes and eruptions with the comet were coincidences. You have presented nothing that suggests otherwise.
to reiterate- the Earth and Moon are both in orbit around the Sun and each other, they are not an object coming in from a different direction, disruptive to gravitational and electromagnetic forces...
the comet passed over at the same time as the many quakes and eruptions, was very large and very close. Many people describe meteoric activity at this same time. The topography of the valley shows the shockwave pattern... [2+2=? ;-]
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 3:13 PM, Kalopin said:
What do "we" know about comets?
Quite a lot. We have landed a probe on one.
Quote
"statistical analysis"? it was 1811.There are only eye-witness descriptions and Alexander Von Humboldt is but one but, I would think, a very reliable source.
You claim that there was "a concentration of earthquakes and eruptions along a period of two to three years". The information on the numbers and strengths of earthquakes is readily available so it should only take you a few hours to demonstrate that this period was exceptional (or not).
Quote
Presently I am not aware of any theoretical physics with calculations considering a comet with enough mass, velocity and on a trajectory taking it to a close enough pass as is being suggested with the effects from C/1811 F1.
As there is no physics behind it, why do you consider it a plausible mechanism?
Quote
Can you find something?
It's up to you support your claims.
Quote
The historical accounts all give descriptions that the comet was very close.
How did they determine the distance?
Quote
mmm, what could cause such heat during an "earthquake" in one of the coldest winters on record?]
What is the physics behind a comet affecting weather?
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Posted December 20, 2015
February in the southern hemisphere is summer, not winter. One really doesn't need any special explanation for heat and humidity.
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Posted December 20, 2015 (edited)
On 12/20/2015 at 3:21 PM, Strange said:
Quite a lot. We have landed a probe on one.
You claim that there was "a concentration of earthquakes and eruptions along a period of two to three years". The information on the numbers and strengths of earthquakes is readily available so it should only take you a few hours to demonstrate that this period was exceptional (or not).
As there is no physics behind it, why do you consider it a plausible mechanism?
It's up to you support your claims.
How did they determine the distance?
What is the physics behind a comet affecting weather?
Yes, and what occurred when Shoemaker/Levy got to close to Jupiter?
...again there were no seismographs, no Richter scale. I don't just claim a concentration, they are all recorded in history books. Please read just the chapter 14, of "Travels to the equinoctial regions of America".
There's plenty physics behind an impact and even one from the close passing of a comet, [again Shoemaker/Levy]
Yes, how did 'they" determine the distance? by description only and it was seen as fifty percent larger than the Sun. So how did "they" find orbital elements at a later time?- precision guesswork?
mmm. wonder what the weather was like on Jupiter when Shoemaker/Levy broke apart and impacted? Ya' think it may have affected it? There's physics behind any motion...
On 12/20/2015 at 3:23 PM, swansont said:
February in the southern hemisphere is summer, not winter. One really doesn't need any special explanation for heat and humidity.
"The Messenger" is from New York and is from the accounts of William L. Pierce, who was in New Orleans, [in the northern hemisphere].
The people who gave the description of the extreme heat were up in "Big Prairie" 761 miles up the Mississippi river... [also in the northern hemisphere and near to the impact] As the article was written in Feb. 1812, the incident was recorded on December 25, 1811 and is about what was seen from the 16th to the 19th of December, 1811...
www.hsv.com/genlintr/newmadrd/newspapers/The_Messenger-Feb_28_1811.jpgso what produced such extremes in temperatures?
Edited December 20, 2015 by Kalopin
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 3:51 PM, Kalopin said:
...again there were no seismographs, no Richter scale. I don't just claim a concentration, they are all recorded in history books.
If you claim a concentration, then you MUST be able to show this by comparing the numbers over that period with other periods. Come on, it's not hard.
Quote
There's plenty physics behind an impact and even one from the close passing of a comet,
Then you should have no problem referencing the peer reviewed papers where this physics is described.
Quote
Yes, how did 'they" determine the distance?
You tell me. It was your claim.
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 4:19 PM, Strange said:
If you claim a concentration, then you MUST be able to show this by comparing the numbers over that period with other periods. Come on, it's not hard.
Then you should have no problem referencing the peer reviewed papers where this physics is described.
You tell me. It was your claim.
well, for one, there's no book discussing a concentration of earthquakes in any other years, is there?
after a google search, no, no peer reviewed papers on the physics from the close passing of a comet and/or a serial impact but, as I am sure you are aware, that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be physics involved, that should be a given?
My "claim" is that C/1811 F1 was seen as one and a half times the size of the Sun in October 1811. That should give strong indication that it must have been close, much closer than 1.22AU. The descriptions in the historical accounts and the observations from Herschel and the astronomers of the day are all that's available...
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 4:35 PM, Kalopin said:
well, for one, there's no book discussing a concentration of earthquakes in any other years, is there?
I have no idea if any such book exists. It is irrelevant. There are statistics for the frequency of earthquakes. Compare the numbers in the period claimed with other periods. As you are unwilling to do this, we can just dismiss the claim.
Quote
after a google search, no, no peer reviewed papers on the physics from the close passing of a comet and/or a serial impact but, as I am sure you are aware, that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be physics involved, that should be a given?
So there is no mechanism and therefore no reason to think there is any such effect.
Quote
My "claim" is that C/1811 F1 was seen as one and a half times the size of the Sun in October 1811. That should give strong indication that it must have been close, much closer than 1.22AU.
Apparent size tells you nothing about distance unless you also know the actual size. Also, was that the size of the comet or its tail?
And please show how you calculated 1.22AU.
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 3:51 PM, Kalopin said:
Yes, and what occurred when Shoemaker/Levy got to close to Jupiter?
...again there were no seismographs, no Richter scale. I don't just claim a concentration, they are all recorded in history books. Please read just the chapter 14, of "Travels to the equinoctial regions of America".
There's plenty physics behind an impact and even one from the close passing of a comet, [again Shoemaker/Levy]
Yes, how did 'they" determine the distance? by description only and it was seen as fifty percent larger than the Sun. So how did "they" find orbital elements at a later time?- precision guesswork?
mmm. wonder what the weather was like on Jupiter when Shoemaker/Levy broke apart and impacted? Ya' think it may have affected it? There's physics behind any motion...
"The Messenger" is from New York and is from the accounts of William L. Pierce, who was in New Orleans, [in the northern hemisphere].
The people who gave the description of the extreme heat were up in "Big Prairie" 761 miles up the Mississippi river... [also in the northern hemisphere and near to the impact] As the article was written in Feb. 1812, the incident was recorded on December 25, 1811 and is about what was seen from the 16th to the 19th of December, 1811...
www.hsv.com/genlintr/newmadrd/newspapers/The_Messenger-Feb_28_1811.jpgso what produced such extremes in temperatures?
You're the one that mentioned Southern Hemisphere in the same paragraph. Anyway, what's the record high for that area in December? Was it in 1811?
I reiterate, all you have shown is coincidence. The burden of proof is yours. You claim this gravity was disruptive, so let's see a calculation of what the gravitational influence was.
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 2:47 PM, Kalopin said:
The Moon is not disruptive to Earth's orbit, they are in sync, [after several collisions, terraforming and finding a better harmonic balance...]
And yet the moon causes tides (but not earthquakes).
Comets do not cause tides or earthquakes.
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 5:32 PM, Strange said:
And yet the moon causes tides (but not earthquakes).
Comets do not cause tides or earthquakes.
Excellent point. We should expect record tides if the gravity was as disruptive as claimed.
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Posted December 20, 2015 (edited)
I recall seeing the images of several years ago.
On 12/20/2015 at 4:35 PM, Kalopin said:
after a google search,
Well, I Googled "Kalopin's Legacy, 1811: A comet and a Quake" and found ten pages of sites related to it going back to at least 2011.
Your original images look very similar to these on Dr. Jack Share's excellent blog;
written-in-stone-seen-through-my-lens.blogspot.com/ (This link is incorrect for following image. Please see post #25 for correction)
post-88603-0-09428600-1450654971_thumb.png
Edited December 20, 2015 by arc
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 5:44 PM, arc said:
I recall seeing the images of several years ago.
Well, I Googled "Kalopin's Legacy, 1811: A comet and a Quake" and found ten pages of sites related to it going back to at least 2011.
Your original images look very similar to these on Dr. Jack Share's excellent blog;
written-in-stone-seen-through-my-lens.blogspot.com/ Your link does not go to a relevant page. Nor does "Kalopin" show up in that blog when I use its search function. Where do those images show up?
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Posted December 20, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 5:50 PM, swansont said:
Your link does not go to a relevant page. Nor does "Kalopin" show up in that blog when I use its search function. Where do those images show up
Sorry about that, I had too many pages open :doh:"Kalopin's Legacy, 1811: A comet and a Quake" was just a separate search I did to find his online history.
I did a separate search for; "what is this red sandy breccia" in images that resulted in -
www.google.com/search?q=what+is+this+red+sandy+breccia&espv=2&biw=1242&bih=585&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiU9buNx-vJAhWmkKYKHayqDOQQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.1 where I found this image after clicking "more images";
post-88603-0-34378500-1450657581.jpg
from Dr. Jack Share's blog page;
written-in-stone-seen-through-my-lens.blogspot.com/2015_01_01_archive.htmlwhere you will find the image;
post-88603-0-11361300-1450657829_thumb.png
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Posted December 20, 2015 (edited)
On 12/20/2015 at 4:41 PM, Strange said:
I have no idea if any such book exists. It is irrelevant. There are statistics for the frequency of earthquakes. Compare the numbers in the period claimed with other periods. As you are unwilling to do this, we can just dismiss the claim.
So there is no mechanism and therefore no reason to think there is any such effect.
Apparent size tells you nothing about distance unless you also know the actual size. Also, was that the size of the comet or its tail?
And please show how you calculated 1.22AU.
where are there statistics for the frequency of earthquakes going back this far? ...and why would this be a reason to dismiss my claims?
i would think that just because there are currently no peer reviews on the physics involved with a serial impact from the close passing of a comet, would not mean that it could not occur?
The "apparent" size was what was described by the witnesses to the comet's passing and there has never been anything seen in space from Earth to appear that large, rather it was the nucleus or the tail. The comet had to have been close.
The believed closest approach of C/1811 f1 was determined to be 1.22AU, which is a later estimate and could not be accurate. see the link previously posted-
www.cometography.com/lcomets/1811f1.html on October 16, 1811. Though the comet had appeared to be fifty percent larger than the Sun and so, if it had actually been at this distance, it would have been so large that it would have disturbed the orbits of every planet in this solar system!
Look at what William Herschel's observations say-
Dec.9- "the branches were already so much scattered that observations of them could no longer be made with any accuracy..." indicating that the plasma tail appeared shorter and the comet had a large debris trail, as the comet became closer, the two tails appeared to rejoin, as that would be the effect from a close passing sungrazer...
Dec. 14- Herschel wrote that the tail "...still remained as before, but the end of it was much fainter..." this appears to describe that the comet was coming toward and going over where Herschel was located...
On 12/20/2015 at 5:32 PM, Strange said:
And yet the moon causes tides (but not earthquakes).
Comets do not cause tides or earthquakes.
and you know of a comet that was a sungrazer, was large enough and passed close enough?
...and the Moon surely does cause continental drift, tectonic activity and earthquakes.. Although there is still quite an argument-
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0523_050523_moonquake_2.html Wegener was correct on his assumptions "...that centrifugal and tidal forces were responsible for moving the continents..." [that is, along with massive impacts such as a direct hit from a comet, large enough asteroid or the Moon!]-
www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/wegener.html[just below "modern reconstruction of Pangaea"]
On 12/20/2015 at 5:44 PM, arc said:
I recall seeing the images of several years ago.
Well, I Googled "Kalopin's Legacy, 1811: A comet and a Quake" and found ten pages of sites related to it going back to at least 2011.
Your original images look very similar to these on Dr. Jack Share's excellent blog;
written-in-stone-seen-through-my-lens.blogspot.com/ (This link is incorrect for following image. Please see post #25 for correction)
attachicon.gifWritten In Stone...seen through my lens January 2015.png
Just judging by appearance, the holes in the rocks you posted appear to be man-made?
I invite you to look more closely at the rocks at my site-
koolkreations.wix.com/kalopins-legacythat all show signs of extreme heat. look at the boulders I am pointing to, one showing a "swirl" design, apparently from a wind eddie as the rock was still molten and another where a couple slabs had been "welded" together.
There are large boulders buried randomly on the northwest faces of the hills in the area, all showing signs of melt.
if you were to take a tour, you would see the canyons and creeks containing these same similar rocks and be able to understand how all the hills pan out from this central location. i assure that you would be overwhelmed with the evidence of a meteor impact...
Edited December 20, 2015 by Kalopin
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Posted December 21, 2015 (edited)
On 12/20/2015 at 2:47 PM, Kalopin said:
.There was an extremely large comet in the sky, in October 1811.
You're making equal "size of comet" with "length of its tail"...
Therefor you claim that it's size is such big in comparison to the Sun.
Tail just appears when comet is very close to star.
Because ice in it is melted and ejected making millions kilometer long tail.
But it's made of basically nothing at all. Just tones of ice, water and dust.
It reflects light from the Sun. That's why it is good visible.
According to wiki, size (diameter) of comet is estimated to be 30-40 km.
Calculate its volume. Then use 917 kg/m^3 for ice-only version, and 7800 kg/m^3 for iron-only version, and calculate its mass.
The real value will be probably somewhere between these two, and more closer to 917 kg/m^3.
Then use inverse-square law to calculate what would be force caused by such mass from distances mentioned in the articles that you provided..
Edited December 21, 2015 by Sensei
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Posted December 21, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 9:32 PM, Kalopin said:
where are there statistics for the frequency of earthquakes going back this far? ...and why would this be a reason to dismiss my claims?
Claims need to be supported. They are not true simply by virtue of existing without contradiction.
Is there any reason to think that earthquake statistics vary widely. Certainly earthquakes happened before 1811 and after 1812.
On 12/20/2015 at 9:32 PM, Kalopin said:
The "apparent" size was what was described by the witnesses to the comet's passing and there has never been anything seen in space from Earth to appear that large, rather it was the nucleus or the tail. The comet had to have been close.
Hale-Bopp was bigger. Your comet has a coma a million miles across, which is 1.6 million km. Hale-Bopp was 2-3 million km, and it got to within 1.3 AU of earth.
www.eso.org/public/usa/news/eso9933/ Heck, it was still 2 million km in 2001
www.eso.org/public/usa/events/astro-evt/hale-bopp/ Like
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Posted December 21, 2015
On 12/20/2015 at 9:32 PM, Kalopin said:
where are there statistics for the frequency of earthquakes going back this far?
It doesn't need to go back that far. I think we can assume the rate of earthquakes is, on average, consistent over time.
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..and why would this be a reason to dismiss my claims?
Because there is no reason to consider unsupported claims.
And this is the perfect time to use the adage: the plural of anecdote is not not data.
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i would think that just because there are currently no peer reviews on the physics involved with a serial impact from the close passing of a comet, would not mean that it could not occur?
The physics is pretty simple. Newtonian gravity shows your guesses are unsupportable.
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The "apparent" size was what was described by the witnesses to the comet's passing and there has never been anything seen in space from Earth to appear that large, rather it was the nucleus or the tail.
Please provide a reference that confirms this was the largest comet seen.
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The believed closest approach of C/1811 f1 was determined to be 1.22AU, which is a later estimate and could not be accurate.
So you agree that the figure you keep using is wrong. Please stop using it then.
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...and the Moon surely does cause continental drift, tectonic activity and earthquakes.. Although there is still quite an argument-
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0523_050523_moonquake_2.html The Moon does not cause continental drift. And if it does have a slight affect on earthquakes it is definitely not "sure", as your link confirms.
And the moon is millions of times more massive than a comet and (more significantly) much, much closer. That is why comets do not raise tides.
Why don't you do the simple arithmetic to calculate the force a comet would have on Earth?
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Wegener was correct on his assumptions "...that centrifugal and tidal forces were responsible for moving the continents..."
No he wasn't. And the article you link to doesn't say that he was.
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On 12/21/2015 at 12:10 AM, Sensei said:
You're making equal "size of comet" with "length of its tail"...
Therefor you claim that it's size is such big in comparison to the Sun.
Tail just appears when comet is very close to star.
Because ice in it is melted and ejected making millions kilometer long tail.
But it's made of basically nothing at all. Just tones of ice, water and dust.
It reflects light from the Sun. That's why it is good visible.
According to wiki, size (diameter) of comet is estimated to be 30-40 km.
Calculate its volume. Then use 917 kg/m^3 for ice-only version, and 7800 kg/m^3 for iron-only version, and calculate its mass.
The real value will be probably somewhere between these two, and more closer to 917 kg/m^3.
Then use inverse-square law to calculate what would be force caused by such mass from distances mentioned in the articles that you provided..
The calculations are later estimates and are null and void.
The only real evidence are the observations at the time. There was no way to calculate any object in space with any accuracy in 1811. The comet was seen as fifty percent larger than the Sun in October. There were many reports of meteors in late November/early December. There was a massive earthquake on December 16, 1811. Never has any object in space been described to be that large.
Why would anyone believe that a fault lying beneath over 300 feet of soft sediments, and in the middle of a plate, could create an earthquake that could be felt as far away from New Madrid, Missouri all the way to Savannah, Georgia? ...and the sediments would damper the effect, not amplify it.
...and what of the appearance of the surface wave pattern? already determined to not have been from the retreat of an ice sheet- couldn't happen, inland seas over millions of years? where's the beach?, the sand? How would water create evenly spaced, rolling hills?
...and why do all the hills center at northeastern Marshall county, Mississippi? ...and why were so many rocks found with signs of extreme heat, right at the center?
Why do all the historical accounts agree?
Why does all the scientific data agree?
Why do all the observations agree?
Study all this for yourself, it's all there. I am only presenting the evidence that exists.
Go through it all, every detail. Let me know what you think.
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Posted December 21, 2015
On 12/21/2015 at 1:42 PM, Kalopin said:
Never has any object in space been described to be that large.
Citation needed.
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Why does all the scientific data agree?
You haven't presented any scientific data.
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Go through it all, every detail. Let me know what you think.
People are telling you what they think. You appear to be ignoring it. You seem to have been blinded by your quasi-religious belief in the importance of coincidence.
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Posted December 21, 2015
On 12/21/2015 at 5:25 AM, swansont said:
Claims need to be supported. They are not true simply by virtue of existing without contradiction.
Is there any reason to think that earthquake statistics vary widely. Certainly earthquakes happened before 1811 and after 1812.
Hale-Bopp was bigger. Your comet has a coma a million miles across, which is 1.6 million km. Hale-Bopp was 2-3 million km, and it got to within 1.3 AU of earth.
www.eso.org/public/usa/news/eso9933/ Heck, it was still 2 million km in 2001
www.eso.org/public/usa/events/astro-evt/hale-bopp/ There has not been such a concentration of earthquakes in so many places and so near the same time period, as there was from 1811-1813.
Hale-Bopp was never described as being one and a half times the size of the Sun. The measurement of its coma has nothing to do with how close it came. How large the comet appeared to witnesses is not a measurement of its size. The coma could be any size and still be distant or close- as was the case with C/1811 F1. It's appearance indicates it was close.
It could not have been fifty percent larger than the Sun and be at a distance of 1.22AU, as it would have been so large, it would have sent Earth off its orbit.
...and what of all the descriptions of the comet? being believed to have "went down in the Ohio river" or to have "touched the mountain of California" at this same moment as the meteoric lights and the earthquakes?
Follow the comet's trajectory.
Study the observations.
...the historical accounts...
Go over every detail and see how it all adds up.
There should be no question-
This was, in 1811, a global cometary catastrophe...
On 12/21/2015 at 1:47 PM, Strange said:
Citation needed.
You haven't presented any scientific data.
People are telling you what they think. You appear to be ignoring it. You seem to have been blinded by your quasi-religious belief in the importance of coincidence.
the "citation"s are the historical accounts, as that is all that is available from such a primitive time as 1811.
the "scientific data" are the satellite views, impactites, observations, eye-witness accounts,... that I am presenting [that you are either overlooking somehow or maybe purposely ignoring?]
What people "think" is their prerogative, what a scientist studies are facts.
I am presenting factual and tangible evidence.
Study the stratigraphy of the embayment. Look at its design. Every single line in the topography centers at northeastern Marshall county, Mississippi, exactly where all the melt rock was found. This surface wave pattern could not have been created by any other means, than a meteor impact.
[soon this will be understood, as there is no other choice.]
I wonder why so many try so hard to dismiss all this evidence as coincidental, when it is all factual?
Surely you do want to find out what had actually occurred in our past, right?
you know, I do welcome any help with this.
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Posted December 21, 2015
On 12/21/2015 at 2:13 PM, Kalopin said:
There has not been such a concentration of earthquakes in so many places and so near the same time period, as there was from 1811-1813.
So you keep saying. So where is the data to support this?
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On 12/21/2015 at 2:45 PM, Strange said:
So you keep saying. So where is the data to support this?
There would not be data, but a lack there-of, which is exactly what we have.
When and where has there been so many quakes and eruptions recorded so close together in time and space?
...and why would there be a comet to appear fifty percent larger than the Sun at this same moment?
...and why so many reports of meteors and meteoric activity at this same moment?
...and why does the entire Mississippi embayment show a shockwave pattern?
,,,and why were so many unusual rocks, showing fusion crust, found at the center of this pattern?
...and why did the Chickasaw, that were ready to fight for their land in 1809, believe all this land was cursed and easily cede after these events?
I believe that, if you further investigate, you will come to this same conclusion- the only explanation- it was a serial impact from the close passing of a sungrazer...,
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Posted December 21, 2015
On 12/21/2015 at 4:10 PM, Kalopin said:
There would not be data, but a lack there-of, which is exactly what we have.
Why would there be no data?
If there is no data, then you cannot claim that there was an excessive concentration earthquakes.
Quote
When and where has there been so many quakes and eruptions recorded so close together in time and space?
That is what I am asking you. I have no reason to think the number was in any way extraordinary.
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I believe that, if you further investigate
There appears to be nothing to investigate. As there is no data ...
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Posted December 21, 2015 (edited)
On 12/21/2015 at 5:54 PM, Strange said:
Why would there be no data?
If there is no data, then you cannot claim that there was an excessive concentration earthquakes.
That is what I am asking you. I have no reason to think the number was in any way extraordinary.
There appears to be nothing to investigate. As there is no data ...
...because the Richter scale and the seismograph were not invented until 1935- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_magnitude_scale
The only recordings of past quakes are from historical accounts and any measurements of strengths are very rough estimates, assumptions and are not accurate.
Von Humboldt did an excellent job, - earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/events/1811-1812.php
I am hoping that you all will look much further into this research and understand its importance. Not only does this concern building codes and public safety but, most importantly, planetary defense...
Seth Stein's research has found that the NMSZ has only moved within a few millimeters in over a years time-
www.nature.com/news/seth-stein-the-quake-killer-1.9311.
During this time, many earthquakes were recorded on the magnitudes of up to three and four on the Richter. What is occurring is that there are chasms within the embayment, left from when this meteor impact pushed the land to such a great degree northward. These chasms are steadily being filled in by the upper sediments. What is being recorded are internal landslides, producing the same effect as a fault slip but not tectonic activity. There is plenty proof for this. Not even just one hundred years ago it was possible for two riverboats to pass each other on the Loosahatchie river and now it is difficult, at best, to maneuver a bass boat up it... The land is steadily moving southward...
The surface wave pattern has had plenty investigation, as well.
Chuck Langston's research has found that it would not be possible for a fault lying beneath so much sediment, as more than three hundred feet, to create the "New Madrid lines"- the wave pattern so apparent and it has been suggested that it was a shock wave pattern from a large bolide, as the shock from a smaller one was was actually measured-
www.researchgate.net/publication/253213039_Site_Reading_Blues_in_the_Mississippi_Embayment
quote-"...indeed the universal character of near-surface velocity structure has been inferred from detailed modeling of ground motions from an extraterrestrial source- the atmospheric acoustic shock wave from a large bolide..."
[...and he is correct, a bolide, except not just acoustic, it was an actual impact...]
The Mississippi embayment has been researched well and, I believe, it is now time to put it all together and uncover the truth-
That a meteor impact was the cause of the New Madrid earthquakes of 1811-1812...
Edited December 21, 2015 by Kalopin
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Posted December 22, 2015
On 12/21/2015 at 7:52 PM, Kalopin said:
...because the Richter scale and the seismograph were not invented until 1935- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_magnitude_scale
The only recordings of past quakes are from historical accounts and any measurements of strengths are very rough estimates, assumptions and are not accurate.
Von Humboldt did an excellent job, - earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/events/1811-1812.php
And I assume this "massive" comet would have caused similar earthquakes all around the world, do you have reports from other places that correspond to this event?
Or are you know claiming that it was all caused by a meteor impact and not the passing comet?
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Posted December 22, 2015
On 12/21/2015 at 2:13 PM, Kalopin said:
There has not been such a concentration of earthquakes in so many places and so near the same time period, as there was from 1811-1813.
And, of course, you have the data to back this up. So let's see it. How many earthquakes happened in this time frame?
On 12/21/2015 at 2:13 PM, Kalopin said:
Hale-Bopp was never described as being one and a half times the size of the Sun.
Probably not, as that would be inaccurate. It was more like twice the size of the sun.
On 12/21/2015 at 2:13 PM, Kalopin said:
It could not have been fifty percent larger than the Sun and be at a distance of 1.22AU, as it would have been so large, it would have sent Earth off its orbit.
Let's see your calculation of how much of a gravitational effect such a comet would have on the earth.
And I don't recall seeing your explanation of how the comet caused earthquakes but apparently did not affect the tides.
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Posted December 22, 2015 (edited)
On 12/21/2015 at 2:13 PM, Kalopin said:
I wonder why so many try so hard to dismiss all this evidence as coincidental, when it is all factual?
Surely you do want to find out what had actually occurred in our past, right?
I hope your not just angry that some independent researcher discovered the truth?
I confess. I confess. I confess.
I am angry and becoming increasingly so. (Actually, I'm just saying that for dramatic effect.) In truth, I should be delighted if your hypothesis turned out to be valid, Such delight! Many ideas turned on their heads, a new paradigm to inspire further research, a wealth of new findings and understanding arising therefrom. Truly wonderful!
Unfortunately, that would require hard evidence and we all I see from you so far are claims and assertions without substantiation. So, let's just zero in on one of those claims. You asked this rhetorical question:
Quote
and why so many reports of meteors and meteoric activity at this same moment?
Clearly you believe that the number of reports of meteors and meteoric activity at "this same moment" were greater than the background values of such activity, or the normal fluctuations from background. Please present the data that demonstrate this to be the case. This should not be difficult for you to do. In order to have reached your conclusion you must have had the data to examine, so you all you have to do is post it here.
I look forward to seeing it.
Edited December 22, 2015 by Ophiolite
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Posted December 22, 2015
I think Godot has that data too...
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Posted December 22, 2015 (edited)
On 12/22/2015 at 1:56 AM, Strange said:
And I assume this "massive" comet would have caused similar earthquakes all around the world, do you have reports from other places that correspond to this event?
Or are you know claiming that it was all caused by a meteor impact and not the passing comet?
Did you read any of the accounts? Yes, there were eruptions and quakes all over the globe from 1811-1813 in a much higher concentration than "normal", or in any later years...
Read up on just one of the eruptions- Mount Tambora- minglombok.weebly.com/tambora-mount---sumbawa.html
quote- "...The decade from 1811-1820 was marked by serious socioeconomic impacts resulting from this poor agricultural production, with malnutrition and epidemics in Europe and Mediterranean countries. Low temperatures and freezing temperatures in spring and heavy precipitation between 1816 and 1817 affected the growth of many crops very badly..."
...and all this began in 1811 just as the comet was first seen, [actually before the comet was seen in Janurary 1811]
This comet caused extreme weather and is what took out much of Napoleon's army-
www.history.com/news/napoleons-disastrous-invasion-of-russia-200-years-ago
"...an unusually early winter set in, complete with high winds, sub-zero temperatures and lots of snow. On particularly bad nights, thousands of men AND HORSES succumbed to the exposure..."
...and read about the differences in temps of the extreme summer before and the instant drops in temps during the winter of 1812, [yes, perfect timing with the passing of the comet...] from 17 degrees below straight to over 28* below zero-
www.militaryhistoryonline.com/napoleonicwars/articles/soldiersoffortitude.aspx {about three- quarters down]
So, most of the quakes, eruptions, and severe weather was caused by the effect from the bow shock of the comet, but direct impacts caused many as well, so both...
On 12/22/2015 at 6:21 AM, swansont said:
And, of course, you have the data to back this up. So let's see it. How many earthquakes happened in this time frame?
Probably not, as that would be inaccurate. It was more like twice the size of the sun.
Let's see your calculation of how much of a gravitational effect such a comet would have on the earth.
And I don't recall seeing your explanation of how the comet caused earthquakes but apparently did not affect the tides.
...and again the "data" is in the historical accounts. There were hundreds/thousands of earthquakes, all recorded in history. There were many hundred quakes just in the central U.S. in 1812, add that to the many hundreds around the world...
Many were recorded by Von Humboldt, but besides Caracas, there were a couple/few recorded in California, [even at such an early date]-
earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/events/1812_12_21.php
earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/events/1812_12_08.php
...and some more info on the New Madrid quakes/meteor impact-
earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/events/1811-1812.php#december_16
Really? do you know of anyone, [an astrophysicist maybe,] that would have such calculations; of the gravitational effect from a comet of unknown size, [other than description,] of an unknown velocity and of an unknown distance, [other than guesstimates] to any planet? Did they get these calculations with Shoemaker/Levy to break it apart and impact on Jupiter?
Mainly the effects are produced from the bow-shock, as a large enough comet, with enough velocity and on the trajectory sends out pressure and particles on waves - pressure waves [sort of like a boat on a lake]. The gravitational and electromagnetic effects are mostly only produced within the limits of the magnetosphere within magnetopause... [-glad you asked, good question, can I see more like this one?]
On 12/22/2015 at 7:38 AM, Ophiolite said:
I confess. I confess. I confess.
I am angry and becoming increasingly so. (Actually, I'm just saying that for dramatic effect.) In truth, I should be delighted if your hypothesis turned out to be valid, Such delight! Many ideas turned on their heads, a new paradigm to inspire further research, a wealth of new findings and understanding arising therefrom. Truly wonderful!
Unfortunately, that would require hard evidence and we all I see from you so far are claims and assertions without substantiation. So, let's just zero in on one of those claims. You asked this rhetorical question:
Clearly you believe that the number of reports of meteors and meteoric activity at "this same moment" were greater than the background values of such activity, or the normal fluctuations from background. Please present the data that demonstrate this to be the case. This should not be difficult for you to do. In order to have reached your conclusion you must have had the data to examine, so you all you have to do is post it here.
I look forward to seeing it.
Why? What would be the present science [belief], on what would occur from the close passing of a large sungrazer comet?
...and how does this go against any of my "claims"?
Please read the accounts, look closely at the rocks, study the satellite views-every line, understand the observations,... the "hard evidence" is all there, just needs to be studied.
...and, once again, it is all within the historical accounts and observations of the few scientists at the time, which is the only data that could possibly be available.
Yes, there was an extreme amount of meteoric activity in late November/early December of 1811
...and, believe it or not, in early December, every year since, there is quite a bit of meteoric activity still, from the close passing of this comet in 1811, left over from its debris trail. This meteor shower is known as the Geminids [and so, no], they are not from the break-up of some unknown asteroid, but from the close passing of Comet C/1811 F1.
I feel sure that, [once all this evidence has been better studied,] this will be the conclusion- the Geminids meteor showers are from an 1811 sungrazer... [contemplate that one;-]
On 12/22/2015 at 8:17 AM, Strange said:
I think Godot has that data too...
maybe stop waiting and start looking? ;-]]]]]]]
Edited December 22, 2015 by Kalopin
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Kalopin, you imply you are practicing science, yet you clearly do not understand the scientific method.
It is not acceptable to tell me that accounts exist, you need to cite them in detail, stipulating page number for information contained in longer works. If you have not provided such properly presented citations within 48 hours I shall conclude that you are either not serious about your claims, or lack the competence to be taken seriously. At present you arguments are laughable.
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Posted December 22, 2015
On 12/22/2015 at 3:53 PM, Kalopin said:
D
...and all this began in 1811 just as the comet was first seen, [actually before the comet was seen in Janurary 1811]
Who saw it in Jan 1811? This page has the discovery in March 1811.
cometography.com/lcomets/1811f1.html
On 12/22/2015 at 3:53 PM, Kalopin said:
This comet caused extreme weather and is what took out much of Napoleon's army-
www.history.com/news/napoleons-disastrous-invasion-of-russia-200-years-ago
Well, no, there is no mention of a comet on that page, so don't pretend that this supports your thesis. There was extreme weather. Any connection to the comet has yet to be established.
On 12/22/2015 at 3:53 PM, Kalopin said:
...and again the "data" is in the historical accounts. There were hundreds/thousands of earthquakes, all recorded in history. There were many hundred quakes just in the central U.S. in 1812, add that to the many hundreds around the world...
Then go and compile this into something that is useful for a statistical comparison. Do a science.
On 12/22/2015 at 3:53 PM, Kalopin said:
Really? do you know of anyone, [an astrophysicist maybe,] that would have such calculations; of the gravitational effect from a comet of unknown size, [other than description,] of an unknown velocity and of an unknown distance, [other than guesstimates] to any planet?
I could envision such a calculation being given as an exercise to first-year physics students in a university course. You can estimate the mass and distance to get a calculation good enough to say whether or not this could possibly have the gravitational effects you claim.
On 12/22/2015 at 3:53 PM, Kalopin said:
Mainly the effects are produced from the bow-shock, as a large enough comet, with enough velocity and on the trajectory sends out pressure and particles on waves - pressure waves [sort of like a boat on a lake]. The gravitational and electromagnetic effects are mostly only produced within the limits of the magnetosphere within magnetopause... [-glad you asked, good question, can I see more like this one?]
What is the effect of this in space? How big of an electromagnetic effect does a snowball have?
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Posted December 22, 2015 (edited)
On 12/22/2015 at 4:11 PM, Ophiolite said:
Kalopin, you imply you are practicing science, yet you clearly do not understand the scientific method.
It is not acceptable to tell me that accounts exist, you need to cite them in detail, stipulating page number for information contained in longer works. If you have not provided such properly presented citations within 48 hours I shall conclude that you are either not serious about your claims, or lack the competence to be taken seriously. At present you arguments are laughable.
Study the accounts, the satellite views, the impactites, scientific and observational data, dendrology,...-put all this together- the rocks were found at the center of all the strata within the embayment, the sights, sounds, descriptions,... all coincide. as I have cited a few, here is some more-
pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/office/hough/mitchill.html
-go down to the bottom and read the effects caused by a meteor impact-
"...hot water ejected with considerable force..."
"...Light in some cases was extricated..."
"...the gas and the hot water and the coal lead conclusively to subterranean fire and the light and sound induce the same belief..."
www.showme.net/~fkeller/quake/lib/roosevelt.htm
Really like this story. go to the bottom of this one, as well-
"...Burning mountain, up the Wichita river had been rent to its base..."
Not sure if you are aware-
There were two volcanoes in central Mississippi, left over from "the ring of fire" that existed from eastern Texas around through Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama and to northwestern Florida, more than likely from the north American plate drifting over the Bermuda hotspot, the mantle plume from the thin lithosphere off the eastern coast of the United States...
These two volcanoes had nicknames, one named "Midnight" was in Humphreys county, the other was nicknamed "Burning mountain" and is now referred to as "The Jackson Dome" which sat on an island named "Jackson Island"
- productforums.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!msg/gec-nature-science-moderated/8K5-wkyqfqI/l9h8Bqw2vykJ
as the Choctaw had named it that in honor of Andrew Jackson when they had fought against the Creeks-
mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us/articles/14/pushmataha-choctaw-warrior-diplomat-and-chief
-about three quarters down]
Jackson dome now sits 2900 feet directly below the Jackson colosseum-
www.howderfamily.com/blog/jackson-volcano/
[and is where we get much of our carbonated water from].
These two volcanoes have always been referred to as standing volcanoes, never as calderas, even though they are now flat. They have nicknmaes, stories, legends behind them, conflicting discovery dates- 1809 and 1860, no ground penetrating radar at the time [not until the 1960's when they were confirmed to have been there] and one of the last stories was when some natives, "from the country adjacent to the Washita" met some settlers in Natchez, Mississippi and told them that "Burning Mountain, up the Wichita river, had been rent to its base..."
Currently it is being taught that these volcanoes fell 65 million years ago in the Cretaceous period!
There are many places in central Mississippi that still have these native names.
The Wichita river [named after the tall trees] was renamed the Pearl river by the French explorer de'Iberville when he saw all the pearls at the mouth...
How would this be possible?
[so, it is my contention that these two volcanoes fell into their own empty magma chambers during this meteor impact event on December 16, 1811, as this would explain all the details.]
On 12/22/2015 at 4:56 PM, swansont said:
Who saw it in Jan 1811? This page has the discovery in March 1811.
cometography.com/lcomets/1811f1.html
Well, no, there is no mention of a comet on that page, so don't pretend that this supports your thesis. There was extreme weather. Any connection to the comet has yet to be established.
Then go and compile this into something that is useful for a statistical comparison. Do a science.
I could envision such a calculation being given as an exercise to first-year physics students in a university course. You can estimate the mass and distance to get a calculation good enough to say whether or not this could possibly have the gravitational effects you claim.
What is the effect of this in space? How big of an electromagnetic effect does a snowball have?
Jan. 1811 is when the first effects occurred in the form of Sabrina island, which suddenly appeared in the Azores on Jan, 30, 1811...- ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/humboldt/alexander/travels/chapter14.html
[3/4 down]
no, the comet was the cause of the weather, as it just passed in late 1811, causing the freezing temperatures in the winter of 1812 and destroying much of Napoleon's army...
If you estimate the size, speed and distance, then how would it find any accuracy?
...again it's not the gravity or the electromagnetic effect, but the force from pressure, [and along with all the charged particles] as the comet disrupts the solar winds...
Edited December 22, 2015 by Kalopin
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Sigh.
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Posted December 23, 2015
On 12/22/2015 at 6:08 PM, Kalopin said:
If you estimate the size, speed and distance, then how would it find any accuracy?
Calculations based on an estimate would be better than no data at all.
(Actually, the way you just keep cherry picking from documentary sources instead of answering the questions asked suggests that you don't even know what the word "data" means.)
Quote
...again it's not the gravity or the electromagnetic effect, but the force from pressure, [and along with all the charged particles] as the comet disrupts the solar winds...
Then please do the calculations to show how a small rock can have that great an effect on the solar wind, and how that can affect the weather.
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Posted December 23, 2015
On 12/22/2015 at 6:08 PM, Kalopin said:
Jan. 1811 is when the first effects occurred in the form of Sabrina island, which suddenly appeared in the Azores on Jan, 30, 1811...- ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/humboldt/alexander/travels/chapter14.html
[3/4 down]
no, the comet was the cause of the weather, as it just passed in late 1811, causing the freezing temperatures in the winter of 1812 and destroying much of Napoleon's army...
So you keep asserting. The problem here is that the plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence"
On 12/22/2015 at 6:08 PM, Kalopin said:
If you estimate the size, speed and distance, then how would it find any accuracy?
If your estimate ends up only good to a factor of 10, but you show that it's still several orders of magnitude smaller than what would be required, then that's accurate enough. Scientists do this kind of estimation all the time.
On 12/22/2015 at 6:08 PM, Kalopin said:
...again it's not the gravity or the electromagnetic effect, but the force from pressure, [and along with all the charged particles] as the comet disrupts the solar winds...
Space is a pretty decent vacuum, so: what pressure?
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Posted December 23, 2015
On 12/23/2015 at 2:53 AM, Strange said:
Calculations based on an estimate would be better than no data at all.
(Actually, the way you just keep cherry picking from documentary sources instead of answering the questions asked suggests that you don't even know what the word "data" means.)
Then please do the calculations to show how a small rock can have that great an effect on the solar wind, and how that can affect the weather.
Comets are not small rocks!
McNaught was estimated at 25km!
Please read this in its entirety- www.space.com/8201-stunning-comet-size-shocks-scientists.html
quote-"...scientists found evidence of a decayed shock wave which was created when ionized gas emitted from the comet's nucleus joined the fast-flowing particles of the solar wind..."
further down-?...it was truly an immense obstacle to the solar wind..."
If this comet were to pass close enough within Earth's orbit it would send a shock wave through the outer crust, vibrations within tectonic plates causing earthquakes and eruptions...
This is what had occurred in early 1811 through 1813...
On 12/23/2015 at 5:58 AM, swansont said:
So you keep asserting. The problem here is that the plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence"
If your estimate ends up only good to a factor of 10, but you show that it's still several orders of magnitude smaller than what would be required, then that's accurate enough. Scientists do this kind of estimation all the time.
Space is a pretty decent vacuum, so: what pressure?
It may be true that much of what I am discussing is not yet fully understood...
Any rough estimate on such a scale is unworthy of calculations and doubtfully would be "good to a factor of 10"...
Any star puts out massive amounts of pressure, known as solar wind. This pressure contains massive amounts of particles, known as cosmic radiation or cosmic rays. Our Sun produces this same effect. High energy cosmic rays can come from the remnants of a supernova. hypernova or quasars and, if one would be close enough, could easily bake this planet...-
www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/GLAST/science/cosmic_rays.html
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Posted December 23, 2015
On 12/23/2015 at 3:22 PM, Kalopin said:
If this comet were to pass close enough within Earth's orbit it would send a shock wave through the outer crust, vibrations within tectonic plates causing earthquakes and eruptions...
This is what had occurred in early 1811 through 1813...
It may be true that much of what I am discussing is not yet fully understood...
Any rough estimate on such a scale is unworthy of calculations and doubtfully would be "good to a factor of 10"...
Any star puts out massive amounts of pressure, known as solar wind. This pressure contains massive amounts of particles, known as cosmic radiation or cosmic rays. Our Sun produces this same effect. High energy cosmic rays can come from the remnants of a supernova. hypernova or quasars and, if one would be close enough, could easily bake this planet...-
www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/GLAST/science/cosmic_rays.html
A few nanopascals is "massive"? Atmospheric pressurre is more than 100,000 pascals. Still having trouble seeing where this shock wave that could materially affect the earth is coming from.
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Posted December 23, 2015 (edited)
On 12/23/2015 at 4:27 PM, swansont said:
A few nanopascals is "massive"? Atmospheric pressurre is more than 100,000 pascals. Still having trouble seeing where this shock wave that could materially affect the earth is coming from.
"Solar radiation pressure is a source of orbital perturbations...", "...Spacecraft are affected along with natural bodies [comets, asteroids, dust grains, gas molecules]..."-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure
...at 1AU Earth has solar pressure at the average level of .9.08 Pa
A large enough comet, coming in at enough velocity and on a trajectory crossing Earth's path will perturb its orbit and send out vibrations through its lithosphere and outer plates. This will produce tectonic activity on such habitable worlds...
Where did you come up with "a few nanopascals"?
[...and this motion in space has little to do with the amount of Earth's atmospheric pressure, other than when the shock wave comes in through it...]
The shock wave is coming from the comet as it passes through Earth's orbital path...
Read up on the effects on the atmosphere from Comet Siding Spring as it passed close by Mars and how NASA had to "hide" their probes from the comets path- mars.nasa.gov/comets/sidingspring/
"...added a temporary and very strong layer of ions to the ionosphere..."- observations from MAVEN, MRO and ESA probes, see- mars.nasa.gov/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1749
[This, pretty much, proves my point, no?]
[of interest-] the effect of sonic booms from a [tiny] F-4 aircraft-
scrippsscholars.ucsd.edu/jahildebrand/content/field-measurements-sonic-boom-penetration-ocean-0
"...into the ambient noise field by 30-50 m, depending on the strength of the boom..."
[comets send out much lower frequencies with much higher intensities]
Edited December 23, 2015 by Kalopin...
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Posted December 23, 2015
On 12/23/2015 at 6:39 PM, Kalopin said:
...at 1AU Earth has solar pressure at the average level of .9.08 Pa
That is 9.08 MICRO pascals. And the variations in that pressure will be even smaller (hence nanopascals). Sheesh.
In talking about the effects, that article describes it as "feeble".
Quote
A large enough comet, coming in at enough velocity and on a trajectory crossing Earth's path will perturb its orbit and send out vibrations through its lithosphere and outer plates. This will produce tectonic activity on such habitable worlds...
Do you have any evidence to support this?
Quote
[...and this motion in space has little to do with the amount of Earth's atmospheric pressure, other than when the shock wave comes in through it...]
This "shock wave" is less than a billionth of the atmospheric pressure. I don't think anyone is going to notice that. It would be like stroking a supertanker with a feather.
Quote
Read up on the effects on the atmosphere from Comet Siding Spring as it passed close by Mars and how NASA had to "hide" their probes from the comets path- mars.nasa.gov/comets/sidingspring/
You have absolutely no concept of scale do you? That was really close, a few thousand miles. Close enough to scatter dust in the atmosphere.
As opposed to your comet which you claim was hundreds of millions of miles away.
Quote
[This, pretty much, proves my point, no?]
It pretty much proves you don't have a clue.
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Posted December 23, 2015 (edited)
On 12/23/2015 at 6:55 PM, Strange said:
That is 9.08 MICRO pascals. And the variations in that pressure will be even smaller (hence nanopascals). Sheesh.
In talking about the effects, that article describes it as "feeble".
Do you have any evidence to support this?
This "shock wave" is less than a billionth of the atmospheric pressure. I don't think anyone is going to notice that. It would be like stroking a supertanker with a feather.
You have absolutely no concept of scale do you? That was really close, a few thousand miles. Close enough to scatter dust in the atmosphere.
As opposed to your comet which you claim was hundreds of millions of miles away.
It pretty much proves you don't have a clue.
That's not a measurement of disturbed pressure, but an average or normal pressure...
No, I claim that Comet C/1811 F1 was much closer than the suggested orbital elements, as it was seen as one and a half times the size of the Sun [that's not a measurement, it's an observation!]...
Yes, I have evidence and just gave you plenty [shoemaker/Levy, Siding Spring] Did you not see the effects from the close passing of these comets?
Dendrochronologist Mike Baillie's work-
www.sott.net/article/145683-New-Light-on-the-Black-Death-The-Cosmic-Connection
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Baillie
...see what the findings are from the close passing of comets and tree ring data and how they coincide with so many socioeconomic and environmental downturns...
"...the odd thing is, even though Bailie points out that many high level scientists and government agencies are taking these things very seriously,...it is still ignored, marginalized and ridiculed to the general public via the mainstream media! Baillie writes-..."
Please read its entirety... thanks
{one for you Strange- cosmoquest.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-130354.html;-]
Edited December 23, 2015 by Kalopin
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Posted December 24, 2015
On 12/23/2015 at 7:19 PM, Kalopin said:
That's not a measurement of disturbed pressure, but an average or normal pressure...
And the changes in pressure would be much smaller. But even if the changes in pressure in these shock waves were 100 or 1000 times larger than the average pressure it will still have no effect on the dense atmosphere. These changes in pressure you depend on are taking place in a hard vacuum.
(I don't know why you bother to link to one of your many threads where you fail to provide any evidence. That one was at least shut down mercifully quickly.)
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Posted December 24, 2015
On 12/23/2015 at 6:39 PM, Kalopin said:
"Solar radiation pressure is a source of orbital perturbations...", "...Spacecraft are affected along with natural bodies [comets, asteroids, dust grains, gas molecules]..."-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure
...at 1AU Earth has solar pressure at the average level of .9.08 Pa
No, that's not what the link says. The heading is micropascals (the wikipedia page I read said nano, but no matter. It's still tiny) micro is 10^-6
On 12/23/2015 at 6:39 PM, Kalopin said:
A large enough comet, coming in at enough velocity and on a trajectory crossing Earth's path will perturb its orbit and send out vibrations through its lithosphere and outer plates. This will produce tectonic activity on such habitable worlds...
Where did you come up with "a few nanopascals"?
[...and this motion in space has little to do with the amount of Earth's atmospheric pressure, other than when the shock wave comes in through it...]
The shock wave is coming from the comet as it passes through Earth's orbital path...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_wind
"The wind exerts a pressure at 1 AU typically in the range of 1–6 nPa (1–6×10−9 N/m2), although it can readily vary outside that range."
Here's a little science for you. Let's compare this to a human standing. If you have a mass of around 100kg, you exert a force of around a kilonewton. Let's say you have big feet, and we'll use a square meter as your foot area, so we make a conservative estimate. That's a kilopascal you are exerting on the earth - 100 million times larger pressure than the solar wind. When you lift up one foot to walk, you double that pressure. (When your foot lands, it will have an impact even larger)
So we should be causing earthquakes every day by walking around, if shock waves in the solar wind can cause them.
On 12/23/2015 at 6:39 PM, Kalopin said:
Read up on the effects on the atmosphere from Comet Siding Spring as it passed close by Mars and how NASA had to "hide" their probes from the comets path- mars.nasa.gov/comets/sidingspring/
"...added a temporary and very strong layer of ions to the ionosphere..."- observations from MAVEN, MRO and ESA probes, see- mars.nasa.gov/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1749
[This, pretty much, proves my point, no?]
[of interest-] the effect of sonic booms from a [tiny] F-4 aircraft-
scrippsscholars.ucsd.edu/jahildebrand/content/field-measurements-sonic-boom-penetration-ocean-0
"...into the ambient noise field by 30-50 m, depending on the strength of the boom..."
[comets send out much lower frequencies with much higher intensities]
Prove your point? No. I think this is the "any port in a storm" effect. You see a few key words and think that these articles support your position, but you obviously don't understand the science (including the scale) involved and why they don't.
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Moderator Note
Kalopin, it seems clear you aren't ready to defend this idea with the minimum rigor we expect in our Speculations section. I'm closing this, so please don't open the subject again unless you can dig a bit deeper to support the conclusions you've made.
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Kalopin
This topic is now closed to further replies..." ;-]
